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Moderators: Jim Murray, narcosis, felixcatuk, Sammy
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| narcosis |
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  Registered Member #39 Joined: Wed Feb 27 2008, 05:14PMPosts: 228 | *yawn* the record is stuck again | ||
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| narcosis |
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| Registered Member #39 Joined: Wed Feb 27 2008, 05:14PMPosts: 228 | I know it's starting to get really annoying reading the same things over & over again and getting no real answers but can we PLEASE stop with the use of offensive language on the forums as this is against the AUP & I don't particularly want to start censoring posts :/ | ||
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| markt50 |
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 Registered Member #89 Joined: Tue Mar 04 2008, 11:31AMPosts: 3 | Hi PhormUKPRteam, Thanks for that link, however I feel that it can be interpreted a different way. It is because of my concern over the protection of my private data that I want nothing to do with Phorm, I see no reason why any person who is concerned would want their data mirrored, analysed, profiled and categorised by Phorm. Here are some of the issues I have as to why: 1). You say you do not store personally identifiable data, I believe this is incorrect. It might not be stored to disk, but it is certainly held in memory because I believe that a mirror of my page is sent to a 'Profiler' for processing. Even if this 'Mirror' is held in memory for < 1 second it is still held in memory on your system. Here is a thought, what if some clever hacker gets into the ISP's network, gets onto the profiler and plants a little app to syphon off the raw mirrored data, I'm sure they might get some very interesting stuff. 2) If I opt out, why does my data still get mirrored to a 'profiler' ? If opting out really meant you were opted out, why do TalkTalk feel the need to change the way in which the opt out system works for their customer, does this not imply that the default opt out process is not really an opt out at all ? 3) With a system that mirrors everything I do, what is to stop you changing the system down the line to start storing some information to disk, adding more and more categories, doing more and more analysing etc. 4) If your system is so good, why feel the need to implement it with a default of being opted in, and by making it difficult to opt out. There should be no reliance on having to have a cookie present to opt out, or by blocking the OIX.net domain. These are the types of things that normal folk wouldn't understand. 5) Finally, how can you not understand peoples concerns over this ? This is the thing I find particularly concerning, Phorm seem to be adopting a cavalier approach to this whole problem, it seems as if it is a case of you guys know best, and we are expected to take you at your word. Well sorry, but I for one do not trust Phorm as a company, the people they employ or these unproven technologies they want to implant at the heart of my ISP. If you wanted to start getting peoples trust then maybe Phorm need to start really listening to peoples concerns and actually providing real answers instead of constantly replying with the same cookie cutter PR responses. Let me be clear about this, I will not be happy until the following are agreed by both phorm and the ISP's: Make Phorm an 'opt in' product, if people want it then let them switch it on. But make certain that if someone is opted out that NOTHING is touched by Phorm, including the fact that you WILL NOT MIRROR MY DATA IF OPTED OUT. I should also have no need to rely on the presence of a cookie, or block any domains to be truely opted out. | ||
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| phormweezil |
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 Registered Member #147 Joined: Mon Mar 10 2008, 11:13AMPosts: 36 | I cant understand why some allegedly literate people cant understand the messages that are coming from us in pretty clear terms. 1. Its MY data, not my ISP's, you have no right to it, they have no right to sell it. 2. MY bandwidth is paid for by me. I do not consent to you pirating it to market whatever your disreputable* customers want to target me with, while I consent to receive ads embedded in sites I choose to visit, I do not consent to you using the bandwidth I pay for to further your business aims. Its not your bandwdth - stay off of it. (*disreputable in the way they seek to subvert our data traffic for thier own ends, my intention is to boycott companies that place advertising with this or any similar scheme, how dare they have the arrogance to assume they have any right to intercept our traffic for their own grubby ends?) 3. Ads included in web pages are accepted as a way of paying for the content, the composition and hosting all costs money and if the site chooses to include ads or indeed have a seperate source serving ads into that site then that is fine, as it is part of the deal we make when looking at a site, 3rd party adverts targetted at us that interfere with the browsing in any way or worse replace that placed in a page by the author (as I understand is the case with at least one of your competitors in the USA) is completely unacceptable and seems to me to border on theft of the site content - you have provided nothing to entice me to visit a website - so why should you or your advertisers benefit from the authors work? 4. If I wish to make a purchase, I will base my purchasing decisions on solid research, NO amount of advertising is likely to sway my choice, it will be based on research via forums and reviews and by recommendations from people I know. So "relevent advertising" is of no interest to me. 4.I refuse to allow the setting of a cookie or anything else originating from a company that has a history of being associated with malware. In common with many other Internet users, I have no trust in either the company or its principle officers, and this opinion cannot be changed by rebranding or any other sleight of hand. I will not allow anything from them to be stored on my hard drive, and I would resist any moves to require me to opt out to the introduction of invasive and intrusive monitoring / site manipulation. You are trying to introduce a change in the way our connections work, the default is to be uninvolved, its should require a positive effort on the part of a user to invite your scrutiny of his/her activities. You have no agreement with ME to intercept my data, and as this would be a change to the handling of my traffic I should not need to opt out. 5. As to operator of a web site and admin of a forum, I forbid you to intercept any data flowing to or from my sites, further, I specifically forbid you to corrupt in any way pages that are requested from domains under my control, As far as your weak claims to provide added security to the browsing experience, I trust Opera and Firefox to provide me with software capable of identifying sites that may casue me security issues, indeed, insecure as it is, I think even Internet Explorer is probably more trustworthy than anything offered by a company once associated with malware, and which still seems to have links with Russia. While I am sure that there are many honest people working in that great nation, the simple fact is that so much phishing and malware originates from that region, that it is impossible for the consumer to have any great degree of trust in anything associated with it. In Simple terms then, The "product" your client is selling is in fact the data that actually belongs to internet users, the "business" produces nothing of value itself, and relies on the parasitic leeching of information about ordinary people going about their lawful business. Phorm is as empty and valueless as its claims about improved security or appeal to customers. Its a shame you dont have a worthwhile product to promote, but the fact is that coming here day in day out posting the same empty hype day after day is not going to quell the anger that people feel about being sold out like this by the companies that they already pay for connection to the net. I know many who are ready to dump ISP's involved in this. | ||
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| Phormic Acid |
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 Registered Member #22 Joined: Mon Feb 25 2008, 11:11PMPosts: 93 | Can we infer from that survey that 70% will feel powerless over what Phorm and their ISP are up to? It’s a bit like saying, “We know you don’t like being hit over the head with small iron bars. We’re not going to do that. Instead, we’re going to hit you with a very large wooden bat. It may be much, much bigger, but, being made of wood, it’s slightly softer.” As narcosis has said, I’m not sure some of us have to be quite so rude. PhormUKPRteam are only doing the job they’ve been paid for. Which nicely brings me on to this… The employees of Citigate Dewe Rogerson are just ordinary people. I wonder what they think. A good number of them must have BT or Virgin Media broadband at home. On a personal level, are they going to be happy? Will they be looking to change ISP? Thinking of Citigate Dewe Rogerson as a whole, will their risk assessors be considering ISP-level monitoring of their employees’ home Internet connections as a factor, when they consider their business’s overall data security? [ Edited Thu Mar 20 2008, 12:56AM ] | ||
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| Midnight_Voice |
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| Registered Member #180 Joined: Thu Mar 13 2008, 08:51PMPosts: 41 | By all means let's play a game of footie with the CDR team over Xmas. But let's not forget that they are paid mercenaries (in the nicest possible sense of the words) while we are unpaid volunteers. And if they lose, they still get to go back to their nice homes and families with their salaries paid, and life as they know it. Whereas if we lose, if we still want life as we know it, the least we will have to do is change ISPs; and for me at least, that means my nice BT Vision box will have to go back, and I'm rather attached to it. So no, we don't have to be personally rude to them as individuals; but as they arrived here under false colours, and have already changed their name 3 times, I hope no-one will mind if I continue to use the projected 4th, and most accurate, name for them that I have devised? Big Brother: a programme people watch, or a program watching people? | ||
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| PhormUKPRteam |
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| Registered Member #110 Joined: Thu Mar 06 2008, 05:05PMPosts: 47 | Hi all Quite a few points raised in the thread, but to kick off, I would point out that the name change was requested by those on this forum. With regards to the comment: "scan it all in the first place even if they opt-out" I would say (again) if you opt out, the Phorm system is off. No data is passed to us to process. Comment: "It seems to me that the data Phorm wants to store about us, however anonymised, profiled, minimalised and channelled, is all additional to the information that is already being collected about us on the Internet." We believe that it is wrong to store Internet users' personal data. That's why the system does not store personally identifiable information, does not store IP addresss and nor does it store browsing histories. So we can't know who you are or where you've been Ad targeting from other major Internet companies means that potentially identifiable personal data is stored for over 12 months before it is even anonymised. You can't really opt out of this because all the market leaders do it. Like it or not, at least with Phorm you have a choice and can switch our system off. Unlike the others, it will be transparent to users when Webwise is on. The very first thing you will see when you go online after the technology has been deployed is a full-page notice and at that point you can decide to opt out. You will see banner ads saying that Webwise is on. So if you don't want it, you will be able to click on these ads and switch them off. Does Doubleclick let you do that? There have also been references to a "download tool" - there's absolutely no downloading of software involved in the Phorm system other than a cookie, which is standard practice: Bad Phorm has dropped a cookie on your computer and on mine. Plus I've had cookies placed on my computer from Google, Yahoo! and the BBC already this morning, among others And lastly, ref: the claims that Webwise is illegal. It's not illegal - we don't agree with FIPR. They offer one view on a piece of the law that is untested. All of the legal advice we've taken and conversations we've had with various experts on DPA and RIPA support our position that our system complies with all the appropriate laws. And football? Yes please... | ||
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| TheOtherSteve |
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| Registered Member #178 Joined: Thu Mar 13 2008, 03:55PMPosts: 46 | Hi Citigate Dew Rogerson PR disaster recovery team, how are you today ? "With regards to the comment: "scan it all in the first place even if they opt-out" I would say (again) if you opt out, the Phorm system is off. No data is passed to us to process." A few points, can you clarify who you mean by "us", in the sentence " No data is passed to us to process." My ISP, Phorm, or CDR ? Secondly, Using the current 'opt-out' solution, should I choose to opt out, my data stream will still be intercepted by the profiler within my ISPs network. Is this true ? And if not, what actually happens ? | ||
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| TheOtherSteve |
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| Registered Member #178 Joined: Thu Mar 13 2008, 03:55PMPosts: 46 | Oh, BTW : "And lastly, ref: the claims that Webwise is illegal. It's not illegal - we don't agree with FIPR. They offer one view on a piece of the law that is untested." Is largely incorrect. (And different from what you previously stated, I see you are retrenching). In fact Nicholas Bohm et al are only so sure of their position because their analysis is based on parts of RIPA which have indeed been clearly established by the courts. I'm reading up on the background now, including the rather summary and very insightful demolishing of Simon Watkin's rather naive advice. | ||
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| SqueakyWheel |
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| Registered Member #37 Joined: Wed Feb 27 2008, 03:58PMPosts: 17 | PhormUKPRteam wrote ... With regards to the comment: "scan it all in the first place even if they opt-out" I would say (again) if you opt out, the Phorm system is off. No data is passed to us to process. So you are now saying that with the cookie in place no pages get passed to the profiler and scanned? That goes against what you and Kent have been saying in the past. Which is is it? Do you mirror and scan the pages and ignore the results or do you not mirror and scan them at all? | ||
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