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This snooping bill is worthy of a surveillance state
Moderators: Jim Murray, narcosis, felixcatuk, Sammy, revrob
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PingusPeriratus
Sun Jun 17 2012, 12:43AM
Registered Member #657
Joined: Fri May 01 2009, 06:32PM
Posts: 1226

Theresa May wants to monitor every personal communication we make. It's a step too far in a democratic society
In my time, I have shared a platform with Theresa May at a Liberty event and Nick Clegg at the Lib Dem conference and on both occasions I remember being heartened by their criticism of the authoritarian policies of the Blair government. Here were politicians who knew the limits of state intrusion and seemed to understand the basis of British liberal democracy.

Four years later, May, as home secretary, is now advocating a system of total digital surveillance, while the deputy prime minister seems prepared to back the Communications Data Bill, provided a few meaningless safeguards are put in place. I won't say too much about May's position or Clegg's rush to compromise liberal principles, because this inconsistency is what we expect from politicians. It is the norm and I feel foolish for expecting otherwise.
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Jim Murray
Sun Jun 17 2012, 09:18AM

Registered Member #1
Joined: Thu Feb 21 2008, 08:29PM
Posts: 350

I completely agree.

In one breath the politicians of our country criticise states like China, Syria & Pakistan for imposing mass surveillance and filtering the internet yet with the very next breath they tell us we need exactly the same monitotring and controls in this country.

That's hypocrasy of the highest order and worse, it's treating the British people like fools. Do they really expect us to swallow the pack of lies and half-truths they are using to justify this draconian legislation?

This invasive & totalitarian legislation needs stopped before it even gets started. The facts need to be put out to the wider public, honestly, clearly and without tech-speak, something I fear our press is singularly failing to achieve.

  • This bill will do nothing to help catch terrorists. If the government want to convince me otherwise, please explain exactly how it will achieve those ends. Even the stupidest terrorist isn't going to post their plans on Facebook!
  • It will do nothing to combat criminals either. We have a record of who sent or recieved what e-mail, when. So what - have they never heard of disposable addresses, encryption  and proxy servers?
  • The only thing ti will do is provide the Government and thier friends a massive database of ordinary people's daily activities. How long before it's mined for copyright infringers, or used to justify 'preventive' surveillance of those with opposing views?
  • It's a huge waste of money. 1.2 BILLION is a conservative estimate. At a time when truly essential services face ever increasing pressure on their budgets and people in need are being denied life-extending drugs how can such expendture be justified on a system that is so easily circumvented it's laughable.
As so many said at the time, Phorm was the tip of the iceberg - the rest of that berg has just surfaced and it smells truly foul!

Jim
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lardycake
Sun Jun 17 2012, 02:28PM
Registered Member #141
Joined: Sun Mar 09 2008, 06:17PM
Posts: 183

I do not think politicians and civil servants have thought this idea up themselves. I think the question of who stands to gain if these measures are adopted needs to be asked.

I don't know but would take a guess it is the armaments & "security" industries moving into the "cyber war" area and pushing their products that are driving this agenda by scaring the politicians and civil servants with invented bogeymen.
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Gordon
Mon Jun 18 2012, 02:25AM
Registered Member #287
Joined: Thu Apr 03 2008, 09:06PM
Posts: 445
Just to add to Jim's reasoning against it...

How long before some clever hacker gets in and releases embarrassing details of the communications of someone "important"?
Preferably a politician, of course, as that might actually wake these halfwits up!
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Peter N
Mon Jun 18 2012, 12:58PM

Registered Member #507
Joined: Wed Jul 30 2008, 02:08PM
Posts: 34
We - by which I mean Britain - have to tread a fine line very carefully. On the one hand, there are genuine, justifiable elements to the gathering of information which could be of huge benefit to society. On the other, there are genuine threats to the rights of the individual members of that same society.

My preferred approach to this is not to fight every step taken or proposed by the authorities but to try to help them get the right balance.

As an analogy, I dislike the OVER-USE of speed cameras - but I do not oppose ALL use of them. In the right place, they are a good tool for enhancing people's safety - in the wrong place, they are just money-grubbing tax-machines.

The same applies to data monitoring. If used properly, it could be not more intrusive than the census or any of the thousands of other manual or haphazard methods used by various authorities to guesstimate what is happening in Britain - in fact, it could be preferable as well as more accurate and immediate. Used incorrectly or over-used and it could be an unlicenced weapon.

Another analogy...

You often drive over "strips" in the road. Those things count the number of vehicles passing that stretch of road over a period of time. You also see people with clipboards standing by the road - they are recording the type of vehicles - cars, van, lorries etc - per hour on that road. That's comparable with the so-called "aggregate data" that many IT based systems use and I think that most people would agree that there's nothing to be concerned about there.

Now - what if in place of that strip and clipboard, a camera is installed? What if the camera records the vehicle's registration number and a photo of the driver?

This is where it starts getting questionable.

IF the software that filters and/or analyses the video ONLY processess the year identifier from the licence number and ONLY makes an "educated guess" at the gender and age of the driver then there is really no problem - is there?

The worry is that the footage obtained actually has the POTENTIAL for other use - that same footage COULD be used to identify the SPECIFIC driver of a SPECIFIC car. Even if there is no intention to do that when the camera is installed, what's to stop that changing in future?

The worry is that we are being asked to trust people who may not even be in power today. Even if we absolutely trusted every person in authority today, it only takes a general election - or a retirement before then - for everything to change.

To avoid - or at least minimise - that risk, we need very carefully written legislation in place BEFORE such systems are introduced and regulators with the authority and will to make sure that legislation is applied and adhered to. That way, the authorities can't change the use made of such technology without being subjected to scrutiny in Westminster - without open discussion and debate and the right to block such changes.

Again with the analogy - children's clothes and other items are not "VAT free" - they are VAT-able - but at zero percent. There's a huge difference between "vat free" and "zero rated" - which is that the government can't start charging VAT on a "vat free" item without changing the law which would require debate and approval in Parliament - but they can increased the rate from zero to x% anytime they want.

Apply that to the laws regarding this data gathering. If the laws are not written in tight - absolute - terms, a change in the type or use of that data could be undertaken with no-one able to do a thing about it. That's where "mission creep" is free to kick-in.

I have no doubt whatsoever that there will be more and more data gathering by the authorities. We can't - and probably shouldn't - waste time arguing against that. What we should do is try to ensure that there are the correct legislative and regulatory controls in place first so that whatever starts today cannot mutate into something else in future without external scrutiny and approval.
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Jim Murray
Tue Jun 19 2012, 04:09PM

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Joined: Thu Feb 21 2008, 08:29PM
Posts: 350
I have a very simple and easy to understand criteria for acceptable surveillance of the type proposed by the government.

If they believe they have need to monitor someone's communications then go to a judge, present the evidence to make the case and get a warrant - just like they do now!

I completely fail to see what use such blanket monitoring is other than to create a record that can be data-mined retrospectively. Such data-mining is not going to prevent crime, nor is it going to catch terrorists - by the time it's taking place the crime will already have been committed and the criminal will be long since gone!

I, and I believe most reasonable people, understand there is a need for surveillance in our society. While it's necessary it also holds a high potential for abuse, hence why such activities are strictly controlled and subject to judicial oversight.That has long been the case and I don't see why the so called 'digital age' requires that we dispense with the safeguard judicial oversight provides. If anything the very ease with which digital information can be collected, analyzed and re-purposed makes such oversight more essential than ever.

With great power comes great responsibility - I'm afraid I wouldn't trust any of our politicians with that sort of unfettered power - not now and not ever.

Jim.
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revrob
Tue Jun 19 2012, 04:22PM

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Joined: Wed Apr 23 2008, 04:09PM
Posts: 640
The problem is that for many people, they have absolutely NO conception of what it is like to be wrongly accused of something and then for the machinery of the state to grind you into small pieces as it rolls on in its pursuit of injustice. Those things only happen to "other" people, and those "other" people are from another planet, and somehow are felt to have brought their fate on themselves.

Injustice can happen to anyone. I shudder to think how many homes have samples of my DNA in, as a result of my job. One of these days one of them may get murdered or assaulted or burgled by someone and then... - or there is the malicious allegation - almost impossible to recover from depending on your occupation.

I'm looking forward to the legislation on banning frosted glass in bathroom windows, and also banning curtains and blinds on all bedrooms - people with nothing to hide can just do it in public view ("for the sake of the children"). Let's start with the Home Secretary's house. Come on Theresa - you've got nothing to hide. A PCSO will be along shortly to ensure compliance.
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Peter N
Wed Jun 20 2012, 01:13AM

Registered Member #507
Joined: Wed Jul 30 2008, 02:08PM
Posts: 34

Jim Murray wrote ...
I have a very simple and easy to understand criteria for acceptable surveillance of the type proposed by the government. If they believe they have need to monitor someone's communications then go to a judge, present the evidence to make the case and get a warrant - just like they do now! 


Part of the problem we face at the moment is that the current legislation is woefully out of date - much of predates electronic communication entirely and the various acts that do cover it have fallen way behind the everyday use of the technology.

We can no longer say that copyright abuse is a wilful criminal act in every situation - even the most "reasonable person" uses images they "found" online without obtaining permission - and in most cases, no "reasonable person" could even trace a much copied and re-posted image all the way back to the copyright holder.  Fifty years ago, the only way you could have copied an image like that would be to open a book and stick it into a photo-copier - it took so many steps and was patently obvious that you were copying something rather than merely using it.    Because if that, there's no real defence based on "fair play" or "common sense" - if you have an "illegal" copy of ANYTHING - you are guilty and all you can do is try to argue that are "stupid" rather than criminal in intent.

Likewise - we are still having ridiculous debates about the nature of blogs and forum/social media posts - should they be treated as the written word or as speech?   There's a major difference between libel and slander and the ambiguity surrounding online content causes confusion, wastes time and increases costs in court cases.

In terms of privacy - there is a very real need to examine the nature of "privacy" as it applies now and will apply in the near future.   Is it reasonable to apply the same strict privacy controls we needed fifty years ago when people are increasinly revealing so much about themselves via social media outlets?   Is wire-tapping of phone-calls still as big a no-no in an age where so many people are perfectly happy to have loud conversation on their mobiles on the train or in the pub?

For me, it's not about the use of data - it's about the ABUSE of it.  It's not about saying that data is sacrosanct.  It's about saying that data is a tangible asset and that the owner of that data should be free to monetise it if they so wish - no-one else.  It's about accepting that the USE of data has to be reasonable and justified.  It's about saying that ignorance and intent actually ARE factors in determining whether or not a crime has been committed.

That last point is a stumbling block for many privacy campaigners.  It's easy to see the problem as black and white but we have to step back and look at the whole picture - not just focus on the likes of Google and phorm.  

For example, when the phorm scandal broke, there was a lot of disussion of the fact that their system created a copy - a breach of copyright.  Trouble is, if we push the copyright case too hard using existing legislation, we actually risk criminalising and alienating the public - people who "borrow" an image to use an an avatar or download a ringtone that was "ripped" from a recording without permission or licence are no less guilty than phorm.    People are demanding the same sort of "reasonable use" legislation that exists in the US and that should help - but it has to be very well written otherwise it could be subverted and used as a defence by genuine criminals - possibly even to defend some elements of online tracking systems.

This is why we need new, relevent legislation specifically designed for the internet age.  We can't keep trying to bend laws written when chickens still had teeth to fit new technology and new problems - because the bad guys are doing exactly the same thing and they are winning.   The regulators and authorities are constantly having to interpret laws rather than simply being able to apply them and when they can't even decide for sure that a crime has occured, there's no chance of them taking action.   Much as I am disappointed with the ICO and CPS's failure to penalise phorm/BT over the illegal trials, I do understand the problems they faced trying to decide what laws were actually broken and then having to decide if any "harm" was done.   Having them placed in a situaton where they have to make such subjective decisions makes it too easy for the villains.


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sigma
Wed Jun 20 2012, 10:03PM
Registered Member #1259
Joined: Sun Apr 01 2012, 11:25AM
Posts: 10
I'd suggest that good legislation is technology agnostic and defines principles. However, I cannot see how this gross invasion of citizens' privacy by the state is compatible with life in a liberal democracy.
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PingusPeriratus
Thu Sep 06 2012, 10:47AM
Registered Member #657
Joined: Fri May 01 2009, 06:32PM
Posts: 1226

Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling said: "The big problem is that the government has built a culture of surveillance which goes far beyond counter terrorism and serious crime. Too many parts of Government have too many powers to snoop on innocent people and that's really got to change.

Just to remind you Home Secretary what your party said in opposition

http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=2745
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